S2S BLACK
GRAPHITE WOOD SHAFTS
Wishon’s Graphite Design for Better Golfers
Features:
- S2S Black Graphite Shafts are created with an improved, slightly stiffer tip bend profile design for golfers with Transition/Tempo/Release ratings from 2 to 3.
- S2S Black 65 gram Wood Shafts are for golfers with more aggressive swing characteristics who have a Strength rating of 1.5 to 2, OR who may be stronger but simply prefer the lighter total weight feel from a 65g shaft weight.
- S2S Black 85 gram wood shafts are for golfers with more aggressive swing characteristics who have a Strength rating of 2 to 2.5, OR who may be weaker but simply prefer the heavier total weight feel from an 85g shaft weight
© COPYRIGHT 2024 WISHON GOLF
Tom I do have a younger gentleman with a swing speed 120 and he is enamored at the Ventus shafts x stiff 70 gram weight. I keep looking at your two options Black X Stiff and the Red Stiff. He said he likes the Ventus to him it is tip stiff softer middle and butt stiff. Now we are talking “feeling” and what may feel like a board to me may feel whippy for the young guys. He has been fitted with a Ventus 60 gram stiff tipped one inch on a Titleist driver. I know you are compiling or… Read more »
ROGER Unfortunately I do not have access to getting Fuji shafts for no charge to do bend profile analysis to put into the bend profile software we re did a few years ago. That is what would be needed so I could look at the zone frequency measurements down the length of the shaft to then be able to EMPIRICALLY compare the Ventus to the Black and Red shafts. So anything I tell you here would be pure speculation based on assumptions and the end result might not work out to this player’s satisfaction. The Red is a stiff butt,… Read more »
Hey Tom,
Hope all is well.
Out of curiosity, have you ever tested higher swing speed players (i.e. >110mph) in a more flexible shaft such as the S2S Black in regular flex?
I would suspect there would be more delivered loft for the late release player with a softer shaft, and a result less loft would be needed in such a situation.
How would dispersion be affected given that even the regular in the Black has relatively low torque?
Looking forward to your response!
-Nathan
Nathan Feedback from players whose swing speed is outside the pre determined recommended swing speed range for each flex can be all over the place. It depends on their own personal preferences for what each individual golfer likes/dislikes in each area of shaft feedback. And of course there are TONS of players who can’t feel any difference between flexes simply because they just do not have that ability. In fact, the only reason we offer a swing speed range, along with the Transition, Tempo, Release and Strength evaluations for each shaft, is to offer a STARTING POINT in shaft fitting… Read more »
Hi Tom! I like to play a shorter driver. 43-44″. With cutting off so much shaft does it make sense to go down a shaft flex and up shaft weight? Would cutting it down make it play more stiff and wouldn’t say an 85 gram shaft go down 10 grams or so?
Appreciate your expertise. Thanks.
FRANCO When you cut more from the grip end of a shaft to make a club shorter, the very slight increase in shaft stiffness that brings about is usually negated by the fact you use more head weight at the shorter length to achieve a normal swingweight. That higher level of head weight has the effect to soften up the shaft a little. So no, you would not go down a flex if you are using a 43-44″ driver length. There is an interesting fact about shafts that also governs this. In every shaft ever made, the larger the diameter… Read more »
Thanks for a great informed answer!! Totally makes sense. Thankful for you as all the others here!
Note: I accidentally posted this on the hybrid shaft page! Here it is on the correct wood shaft page. Howdy Tom! Due to a shoulder injury this winter, I’ve lost some swing speed with my driver, so Bill Owen and I put a S2S Black 65 R in my 919, and at my current cruising speed of around 95 mph, it’s SO much easier to control than the 85 S. I’m going to go ahead and put the 65 R in my EQ1NX 4 and 7 wood, and was curious of the effect it may or may not have with… Read more »
Matt It’s not very likely from my experience that a shaft weight change could make any real difference in shot curvature such as a slice. A curving flight problem like that is a product of the swing path being over the top, outside in mainly, or secondarily possibly from a lack of being able to rotate the arms/hands coming into impact to square the face. ie leave the face less open. It’s possible, though not that likely, that a total weight change could help with accelerating the rotation of the arms/hands, but there is not enough incidence of seeing that… Read more »
I recently acquired a used S2S Black 85 (the older silver version) wood shaft. The previous owner did not know if the shaft had been tip trimmed or not. I was wondering if anyone would know how long the parallel tip section is or has a tip to graphics measurement so that I could figure out if the shaft has been tip trimmed. Thanks.
ZACH
Happy to help with the information you seek. Tip parallel section length on the S2S BLack 65 and 85 for both R and S flexes is 4″. Distance from the raw uncut tip of the shaft to the black line on the back side of the shaft is 21″. The back of the shaft is the side that has the information for SW Spd, WGT, TRN, TEM, RLS and STGTH. Hope this helps,
TOM
Maybe an off-the-wall question, but what are your thoughts on the AutoFlex and now the FreeFlex shafts out of Korea?
James Actually, after doing a full bend profile analysis on one of the AutoFlex shafts so I could know what it is in terms of its full length stiffness design and specs, I found that it is pretty similar in many ways, especially bend profile and torque, to the family of NitroFlex shafts that Robin Arthur designed for Grafalloy in the 90s, back when he was VP Engr for Grafalloy in their before being bought by TTemper days. That was a shaft, like the AutoFlex, that was quite flexible overall but its flexibility was hidden by a very low torque.… Read more »
Is there any relation between this shaft and the KBS TD wood shaft? I recently ordered both and they are exceptionally similar to say the least. Understand if you can’t publicly comment, but feel free to shoot me an email. If they don’t have a relation, are they similar from a shaft profile point of view?
GREG According to my research on this from when I was building the data base for the new bend profile software, there are a number of different versions of the KBS TD shaft, noted by Category 1, 2, 3, 4. In comparing the Black 65/85 (which both have the same bend profile for each flex) the KBS TD category, 1, 2, 3 are all softer in the tip section by a fair bit than the Black 65/85. ONly in the category 4 version does the TD tip section get as stiff as it is in the Black shaft. I would… Read more »
Hi Tom, regarding wood shafts, your S2S White S and Black R seem to be close in weight and torque. How should one interpret the stiffness profile between the two and how close or different are they from your viewpoint? Thanks!
Hi David,
Tom is currently away so I am handling comments for him. The main difference between the White S and the Black R shaft is in the tip section. When looking at the profile numbers the shafts are fairly similar until the last two tip section numbers. A 30 cpm difference at the tip end is equivalent to a full flex difference, so golfers with a later release will have better feedback from the Black R shaft than the White S.
Best Regards,
Ash
Hi Tom, Can you please design a 65g X-Flex Driver and Fairway wood shaft as this seems to be the only weight range not included with your shaft line-up.
Your feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Cheers Craig
Custom Fit Golf
Craig I am pleased that you recognize that my goal in shaft design has been to try to fill all the possible fitting needs. Your statement that the 65g X is about the only category not included means you are well aware I am trying to create fitting options for as many golfers as possible. Now the tough news. . . unfortunately every time we have created an X flex shaft, and if memory serves me right there have been 3 or 4 over the years, the fact seems to be so few of the clubmakers use an X from… Read more »
How can I buy the s2s shaft for my hybrid. Mines broke I need another one. My playing length is 37 inches with hybrid… when I buy the shaft which iron # I select out of the shaft trimming chart ?
JASON Take the hybrid back to the custom clubmaker that built the club and ask him to replace the shaft. If you did not buy the club from a custom clubmaker then you would need to head to the link at the top of our home page for FIND A CLUBFITTER and use this search tool to see if there is a custom clubmaker in reasonable proximity to you – or if not you could always call the clubmaker wherever he is and ask to buy this specific shaft and have him ship it to you, if you in fact… Read more »
Hey there TOM, how are you?
I wanted to ask you about proper tip trimming the Black 85X shaft. In order to get the swingweight up enough (to combat the drop due to my oversize grips), I need to add 20-25g weight to the wood head/shaft tip.
I was thinking that I should to tip trim the shaft (according to your tip trim chart) as a 4W due to the extra weight… is that right?
Thanks in advance for your help,
Jake
P.S. I CAN’T WAIT for my new EQ1-NX irons to get there!
JAKE Doing fine, thank you very much! Just wish I could get my golf swing to transfer from the range to the course, but other than that, OK! You asked about the Black 85X – we do not offer the Black 85 in an X. If memory serves me right, I think that a long time ago we did have an X in the Black pattern but no longer. At any rate if your post was in error and you meant S the trim is conventional – 0 for driver, 1″ for 3w, 1.5″ for 4w, 2″ for 5w and… Read more »
Thanks SO MUCH for your reply TOM, I appreciate it. Your ongoing support for your products is amazing. I guess I do have an older shaft. It is a Black S2S in X flex. I guess i have had it for a while now that I think of it. I apologize if the answer is still the same, but I wanted to clarify a little further with my tip trimming request. I am going to be using it with a 3W (actually a 2014 model 949MC, in perfect condition) but since I had to add about 20g to it to… Read more »
Jake Well there you go, shows how much I pay attention to some things these days !! HA! Only if you have a very aggressive downswing move at the ball would you think about increasing the tip trim for the shorter length 3w with more headweight. Keep in mind that with a normal 3w length being 43″, with this being 40″ I think I remember you saying, that shortening of the shaft length has stiffened the shaft up a little bit anyway. So unless you really have a very aggressive downswing transition move, I would just keep this at 1″… Read more »
Thank you SO MUCH for your help and support TOM. I will use the 1″ tip trimming recommendation. Looking forward to putting the 949MC to use on the course next week.
Jake 🙂
Hey Jake just chimming in. The 85 black x is still sold by diamond golf, I got one I ordered maybe 2 weeks ago. As someone who plays heavier grips and has fit a few sets with them heres my 2 cents. Dont worry about swing weight when using overly heavy grips. Build the club to the desired swingweight as if it was you were bulding it with a standard size grip, and then ignore the swingweight at that point. Anytime We’ve tested say an 85 gram grip and then added weight to the head get the swing weight back… Read more »
Thank you for chiming in and helping out Kourtney, it’s greatly appreciated. Thinking back I believe I experienced both sides of what you had said, disregarding the whole idea of SW with a club and actually liking the end result… and later on feeling the heavier club and even worse, heavy and too stiff at the same time, it was awful. I have another setup I was thinking about doing before the EQ1-NX irons and #4 Hybrid get in here, so I will try what you suggest and see if I get the same result. I LOVE testing new ideas… Read more »
Honestly you can get away with adding the weight back in on an iron because its so much shorter than a driver or fairway wood but with longer clubs like drivers it causes more issues because you already have a lighter weight clubhead (200 ish grams) a lighter weight shaft, and a very long shaft length, so the counter balance of a heavier grip has way more affect than on an iron. I’m curious how the new jumbo max light grips will perform because they aren’t very heavy. I play jumbo grips in my irons but drop down to midsize… Read more »
What is the bend profile for the S2S Black 85 gram stiff? Butt,Mid and Tip?
WES
Check your email as I responded with graphical information directly to your inbox.
TOM
Tom before you completely retire you are going to have to do a rundown of your shafts and give the characteristics of the shafts and how they compare to some of the offerings from the “big boys”. I think the golfing community (if they will listen) would be greatly surprised at the performance level and not just that, but the consistency from shaft to shaft, It wasn’t that long ago when you would buy s shaft from one of the major shaft manufacturers and they could differ as much as two flexes. I applaud the shaft manufacturers on how they… Read more »
ROG Back in 2006 I created a software program we called the Shaft Bend Profile Software. We took stiffness measurements over 7 different places on each shaft and put these measurements into a data base in the software so you could pull up any shafts in the DB to compare in graph and data form as a way to know what the stiffness differences were and how much. This software and data base lasted until 2016 when due to a complete lack of support from the shaft makers we had to discontinue it. We had relied on the shaft makers… Read more »
Tom, Thank you in advanced for your response. I have a stock shaft and head from a big name brand that performs excellent for me. I would love to match or profile some shafts for the future. How would I go about matching the shaft with another? I do have an auditor shaft profiler that I havent used yet. Dont know if that’s helpful. The shaft already has an adapter on the end and a grip as well. Is there somewhere I could send it to get it profiled? Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks, Jarrod Ps. I have… Read more »
JARROD Not an easy answer and one that you might raise eyebrows at because no one wants to disassemble a club they presently hit really well for fear of never getting it back together to perform exactly as now. But that is what you would have to do to profile the shaft precisely enough to know more exactly what other shaft(s) might be the same or similar enough to play the same for you. With the bare shaft with no epoxy in the tip or tape on the butt you would then have to do zone frequency measurements with the… Read more »
Hi Tom,
Do you know which of your current shafts is must similar to the older Wishon Interflexx High-Launch S flex? Interested both in weight and bend profile.
Thank you!
KYLE
Sure thing, the closest to the original Interflexx High S would be the S2S White S. The butt stiffness and the tip stiffness are very close to the same in the White.
TOM
Hello Tom,
I’m from Korea and I appreciate on all of your work.
I learned a lot of things from your youtube and website.
I’m surprised on this shaft spec because 65-R&S CPM of 36″ to 16″ is higher than 85-R&S. Is there any reasons for flexible mid section of heavier shaft?
Yong
YONG
Thank you very much for your post and your interest. We appreciate that very much. I am sorry but the bend profiles of the 65 and 85 gram versions of the Black shaft are supposed to be the same so it must be an unfortunate miss print of the bend profile specs in the catalog or website where you saw it. I will need to tell Diamond Golf to be sure to correct that for the coming year. Thanks very much for letting me know.
TOM
Hi Tom,
Thank you for all you do for us mortals…I enjoy reading your posts and books. I have learned alot. I’ve had good luck with the Ping Tour shafts in drivers (both reg and stiff). Does your database show how these would compare to your Black…or is it more close to the white? Thanks again.
KEVIN Many thanks for your very kind words. Let’s just say I very much appreciate that you appreciate what I try to do to offer good, truthful information to help you enjoy this great game a little more. Thank you! The collection of OEM company proprietary shafts in the bend profile software data base is very limited because we are not permitted access to those shafts by any of the companies. Nor can the shaft makers who manufacture them send us samples to measure. The only OEM shafts we have in the data base come from clubmakers having submitted the… Read more »
Tom, I am looking to build a 919 F/D 12 degree to replace my 3 wood. I primarily hit the 3 wood off the tee and would like to find a little more distance to replace the 3 wood and driver. The 3 wood I’m currently gaming has a Matrix Ozik HD 6.1 shaft. The characteristics of that shaft are it plays to 43″ it’s 64g, 4.0 torque, mid/high launch. I love the club so I want to build the F/D to be as close as possible to it. What shaft would you recommend? I will probably also build a… Read more »
KEVIN
The S2S Black 65 would have the most similar bend profile pattern to the HD 6.1. Both are not super stiff in the butt but are stiff in the tip based on the data I have in our bend profile software.
TOM
Performance wise on the 775 hs hybrids, if I’m looking for an 85 gram shaft to use in like a 3 hybrid, is it ok to use the s2s 85 Black wood shaft? The 100 gram hybrid version is a just a bit too heavy and the white hybrid I fear would be too soft.
COURT You can use any wood shaft with a 0.335 tip in any of my hybrid heads. The trick though is to figure out what tip trim to use. Wood shaft tip trims are designed with a wood length and wood head weight in mind. Hybrid lengths are much shorter (or at least the way I ordain hybrid lengths) and hybrid heads are a good bit heavier. So the shorter length of the hybrid makes the wood shaft play more stiff but the higher head weight of the hybrid goes the other way to make the shaft play more flexibly.… Read more »
Tom, Thank you very much for answering my questions in the past! I very much appreciate it, and there is no doubt that you are the Arnold Palmer of golf club designs in your capacity and graciousness to answer all these many questions posed to you. If an iron head, in this case, specifically wedges, has a hosel bore that only accepts taper tips, then it is easy enough to ream out the hosel to accept a .370 parallel tip. With taper tips, one pretty much gets what one gets in regards to the tip in relation to the first… Read more »
JARROD Some parallel tip shafts are the same exact shaft as the taper tip version but just with the very tip end “swaged” down into the 0.355 taper. Some are not. The TTemper Dynamic for example is a different shaft in taper form vs parallel, but several other tapered shafts are simply the parallel version with the tip trim done and then the very tip end mechanically squeezed into the taper construction. You can usually tell by comparing the cut shaft wweight of the two shafts. By cut weight shaft I mean comparing the weight of the butt trimmed taper… Read more »
Hello Tom, I am considering a S2S Black 65 in a 919FD, or THI. I tried my friends Ping G15 today with a Aldila Serrano 60S and it was nice to swing, and I hit it well. I appreciate that I am asking you to compare a rival company, and I apologize, but do you know if the S2S Black 65 would be a close match to the Serrano? I have a fast aggressive swing, and want a Wishon shaft. I don’t have any other data to help you apart from that the Serrano suited me. Thank you in advance.… Read more »
Steve:
Answer sent by direct email so I could include the Bend Profile graph and data for both shafts you ask about.
TOM
Hey Tom I have an Auditor Frequency machine but I am missing a Frequency Chart. I was trying to find one but I am a bit concerned about the accuracy and consistency of the charts out there. I tried to Google different charts but there are differences I have found. What frequency chart do you use?
Thanks
CHRIS I don’t use any type of frequency chart with any of the Auditor machines that I have or have had in my career. It’s very well known that there are no standards for anything related to shaft flex or bend profile in the equipment industry. So there is no standard for whatever frequency is said to be an average R or S or any of the letter flexes. Any of the charts that list some frequency as an average for each letter flex are just guesses or opinions anyway. What is far more important for referencing shaft flex to… Read more »
Hitting oban 75 gram 44″
Dd Callaway, swing speed
104-106, just bought epic head interested in 45.5 85 gram regular shaft.
Im.74 6′ weigh 234.
Old baseball tennis player & I understand elliptical pop, balance. Playing competitive carry 5.3 usga at sonterra in San Antonio. What you got, what do you think Sgeri@debsinsurance.com
Stephen What I have and what I think is that you should take the time to drive to Kerrville to be custom fit by Keith Chatham of Precision Fit Golf. Keith is without a doubt one of the 5 best clubfitters in the whole world, and I am not exaggerating when I say that. I’ve known him in this side of the golf business since the early 90s as I was the guy who got him started in his studies and training in the field. From there he has gone on to truly be one of the best there is.… Read more »
Tom,
I recently installed S2S White (stiff) hybrid shafts in my 775HS’s and they feel/perform great.
I put an S2S White (stiff) 65g wood shaft in my driver and it feels a little “wobbly” at impact, for lack of a better term (i.e., it feels like I’m overpowering the shaft).
I’m going to try the S2S Black 65g wood shaft next, but am undecided as to whether I should go with a regular or stiff. My swing speed with a driver is about 95 mph, with a generally smooth transition.
Your thoughts?
Ray
RAY What you are experiencing in the feel difference between the White wood and White hybrid shafts is due to the actual bending design difference between these two different shafts combined with the effect of the much greater length on the driver vs hybrid and how that tracks into your personal sense of bending feel of the shaft during the swing. Wood shafts, hybrid shafts and iron shafts are completely different animals in terms of how much they actually bend during a swing. When I design a family of shafts like the White in which there is a wood, a… Read more »
Tom,
I tried the S2S Black 65-S shaft and it works perfect. Best driver shaft I’ve ever used. Lowest handicap ever this year (2.4).
Kudos!
RAY
Very glad to hear that ! I designed the Black 85 to be our “good player’s” shaft with it’s firm tip section design and a butt stiffness that is not too stiff for each flex. Best wishes in this great game and may the driver keep putting smiles on your face !! Thanks so much for letting me know !!
TOM
Tom I thought it time for an update on the Black 85 gram X shaft. I started first with the 85 gram x flex tipped about an inch( for a young guy with hopes of the Nationwide Tour ) in the 919 Fairway driver 14 degrees and that worked out extremely well. So I first had the Graphite Design BB X flex 75 gram version, but he wanted to try the 85 gram X Flex that you had and so we put the 85 gram x flex not tipped into the M 1 driver 440 cc and installed it with… Read more »
ROGER
My pleasure and I am happy to hear that the fitting work has been successful !! So many times these things take some time to cover all the bases, but it sounds like this was done very well from the results ! And no, I kind of have a real aversion to these high dollar shafts in the industry these days so I am the wrong guy to ask about a trade in for a high dollar shaft ! But Ebay can be your very best friend when it comes to that !!
TOM ;>)